Comments on: The Rollkur Debate and Patrik Kittel Video

By: Update on the Rollkur Controversy « From The Horse’s Back

Update on the Rollkur Controversy « From The Horse’s Back — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:07:04 +0000

[...] training techniques. I have to admit, I was a bit surprised by the response I received to this post and felt that an update was in order as there have been some recent developments. Although Billie [...]

By: michelle

michelle — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:02:04 +0000

Thank you for commenting, Mathilda. I appreciate your viewpoint, but I’m afraid that I personally disagree with you. I don’t think that just because someone performs “well” that it justifies harsh or cruel training techniques. As a longtime veteran of the Appaloosa show arena, I know for a fact that the best horse does not always win and that sometimes unnatural movement becomes desirable in the show ring. That doesn’t make it right. One example of this is several years ago, the trait for winning western pleasure horses was an extremely low head carriage. Some horses naturally carried themselves this way, and happened to do well. Soon, some trainers were jumping on the bandwagon and trying to create this headset at any cost – up to the extreme of “hanging” their horses in their stalls for hours until they were so exhausted that they traveled with the “desired” low headset. Just because these horses won their classes does NOT justify the manner in which they were trained. Eventually this practice has declined, but it took a long time to get there.
I can accept that used in the proper way, hyperflexion may have some beneficial results for stiff horses. However, my issue is that the unedited video that I watched was approximately 10 minutes long and I never saw that horse get any relief or reward for traveling around that arena in such a restricted state. To me, that is when it becomes abusive.

By: michelle

michelle — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:49:10 +0000

Thanks for the enlightenment, Billie. Unfortunately, when “trainers” like this have success in the show arena, their training methods are somehow justified to the masses that it’s OK to be harsh with horses. It never ceases to amaze me that these animals will tolerate this sort of riding, when they could so easily remove their riders! I guess I wouldn’t make it very far in Patrik Kittel’s barn if I were a horse!

By: michelle

michelle — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:43:51 +0000

Thanks for your input, Chelsi. I agree with you that the lack of release in this training method is of particular concern. As I watched this video several times (both the edited and unedited versions), I saw a horse that did not appear to be struggling or fighting, and yet was never offered release or a reprieve from the overly restricted position he was being forced into. As I said before, I am not familiar with this style of riding other than what I have learned in light of this video. However, in my 20+ years of horse experience, I have never participated in or witnessed a training technique that did not reward the horse for providing the desired response. I cannot imagine how consistently riding in this way produces horses that are sound in mind and body that will perform well for any length of time.

By: Mathilda

Mathilda — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 06:46:03 +0000

I have been at Patriks place and I have too say, he ride soo soft and gentel with his horses. I would never dpo anything too harm them.
The tounge was just out for a couple of seconds and the tounge gets blue really quick but turns back too normal color after a few seconds.
We always discuss the hyperflexion in dressage.. The jumping rider have been riding with hyperflexion for a very long time. I have really hard too see that the horse not feel good, if the horse didn`t feel good about this riding how can he ride at over 70 % in a grand prix?
I myself have a good experience about hyperflexion.. My pony always was a little bit stiff in his left side, but then i startde too ride him soo low and “over bend”him on both side when I started too ride him. After that it was like a different horse. He was soo soft and really enjoyed his work. After that the riding was soo fun! I just played with him and he just danced!
I like Patrik and think that it`s fun that it go soo good for him, soo why just leave him alone and let him doo what he is best too do? Ride!

By: billie

billie — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:33:59 +0000

Unfortunately, it is becoming apparent that Patrik Kittel has a documented history of using these very harsh techniques on his horses – resulting in profuse bleeding from the mouth, open wounds from a too-tight cavesson, riding with double bridle AND a dropped noseband that was so tight a steward could hardly get it unbuckled.

Horses often hide distress, especially if it is something that has been done to them over and over again. In Scandic’s case, it appears to me that he has simply dissociated himself from the pain and trauma.

By: Chelsi

Chelsi — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:15:20 +0000

IMHO- The use of rollkur for a length of time (even one quarter of what is seen in the UNCUT version of that youtube video) is abuse. In my experience a FORM of rollkur (hyper flexed) can be used for a very small amount of time (seconds to a minute) both on the ground and the saddle as a method of creating a small amount of discomfort in order to encourage the horse to the desired behaviour, at which time the release of pressure is given. This teaches the horse to do the desired behaviour as quickly as possible in order to avoid the discomfort. …ie to give to the pressure of the bit….(the same could be said of any pressure we apply to our horse) where this method becomes abuse is when the release is not given. Rollkur, as it relates to abuse, is not hyperflextion, it is the the use of hyperflextion for a prolonged period of time and so the debate is what constitutes “prolonged”. I personally feel that rollkur being used for any length of time when the horse has no method of finding release is abuse. Other riders in this video use rollkur for a 10 or 20 seconds and then release the pressure. This problem is systemic in all disciplines where the frame of the horse is of issue (dressage, reining, western pleasure, hunter etc.) but is not an issue (that I’ve heard of) of abuse in areas like jumping, cutting, eventing, etc. even though rollkur is sometimes used in training for those sports but is not used in such an abusive form. It is even used in natural horsemanship. It seems the FEI has finally, as a result of that youtube video, taken a more specific stand on the issue (as of November 17th or 18th) and is going to start issuing stricter guidelines on it’s use. I hope that they pay as much attention to it in the reining arena as they do in the dressage.

Kejsa- having ONLY watched the unedited version I can say that, IMO there is no question, NONE, that is abuse of rollkur. The tongue issue is a moot point (not related to the abuse). The reason why rollkur is of such issue is that it IS being used and is effective in achieving results by the top names in the industry. The fact that this guy has won such big events says nothing about his methods of getting there…if anything the opposite. Riders at that level are under a lot of pressure to provide results and win by the owners and sponsers that have a lot of money riding on the performance of that horse, which is why horses at the level are often subject to such abusive training methods…there is more than just a ribbon riding on the results.

By: michelle

michelle — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:01:07 +0000

Thanks for your input, Kajsa. I will be sure to check out the uncut video on YouTube.

By: Kajsa

Kajsa — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:38:05 +0000

I won’t comment on whether or not to use rollkur as a training technique, since I’m not sure how I feel about it myself and don’t think I know enough to make a statement. But, I want to make something clear about the video of the swedish rider Patrik Kittel and his horse Watermill Scandic at the World Cup Dressage Qualifier in Odense, Denmark, oct 2009. The video you’re writing about is an edited version, in which the part where the tongue is actually hanging outside the mouth is in slow motion. That makes it seem as if he is riding like that for an extended period of time, when it in reality (if you watch the uncut video on YouTube) it’s only about 10-20 seconds. Patrik, when he discover the situation, stops the horse immediately and fixes it. I also have a hard time believing that a rider who has educated more than 30 horses up to Grand Prix and has more than 50 victorys in Grand Prix competions on more than ten different horses would have achieved all of this if his horses were not comfortable with the rider and the training. As far as I can tell Scandic does not show any particular signs of distress in this video, aside from the tongue hanging outside his mouth. But please, if someone thinks I am wrong about something, just comment because I would be happy to know.

By: michelle

michelle — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:07:47 +0000

Victoria, that is the saddest part to me too. I hate that these animals tolerate that kind of abuse when they could kill a man if they chose to. It really speaks to their souls if they will continue to try to appease their riders, even after this sort of treatment. Such a shame.